Joe Grundy

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Posts by Joe Grundy

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  112

  JW.org reports on the Sandy Hook shooting...

  by cedars in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  from the official jw website.... .

  school shooting in connecticutdecember 17, 2012 | united states.

  on friday, december 14, 2012, a shooting took place at an elementary school in newtown, connecticut.

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  Joe Grundy

  This will be my only post on this subject.

  I offer my condolences to all affected by this tragedy. I have grandchildren (3, 1, 1) and although my children are adults now I can barely imagine the grief.

  I was a cop for 30 years. Never had a gun, wouldn't want one. Was at the wrong end of one a couple of times.

  I have no idea what the solution to all this is, or if there is one now - maybe it's gone too far.

  Some years ago I was in the US working on a case. I worked with two FBI guys. One never carried his gun but it was to hand if needed. The other (much younger) carried his all the time, including to church. One guy we dealt with had 147 firearms and he and his wife slept with loaded 9mm automatics under their pillows - in a very rural, almost zero-crime area. When this guy and his wife came to the UK to give evidence we had to convince them NOT to wear bullet-proof vests when they gave evidence (he insisted on wearing his under his clothes).

  When my colleague and I were off-duty on our visit, we wandered around (as you do) and ended up in some fairly unsavoury places. Unarmed, not hiding that we were police, 'innocents abroad'. We had some interesting encounters but never had a major problem, maybe because we were used to talking to people rather than getting into pissing contests.

  The UK is not, of course, a paradise and we have many problems here. But I offer my sympathies to my US friends because I don't think you're living in the land of the free - I wonder if you're living in the land of fear.

  No offence intended.
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  120

  Christianity gives you....ummm...ummm....exactly what?

  by Terry in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  christianity:.

  you get struck on the cheek and you pony up for the other slap.. you pray for the enemy who wants you face down in the mud with his heel on your neck.. you get treated like pond scum but you force a smile and forgive.. .

  if you are abused?

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  Joe Grundy

  "Do as you wish others would do for you"

  This is not, of course, a Christian teaching: or, to be more accurate, it is a teaching of religions/philosophies which pre-date Christianity and was incorporated into Christianity.

  'Do as you would be done by' is, I understand, a principle espoused by (and evidenced by the behaviour of) many primates (not only homo sapiens).
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  120

  Christianity gives you....ummm...ummm....exactly what?

  by Terry in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  christianity:.

  you get struck on the cheek and you pony up for the other slap.. you pray for the enemy who wants you face down in the mud with his heel on your neck.. you get treated like pond scum but you force a smile and forgive.. .

  if you are abused?

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  Joe Grundy

  What does it give you?

  A sense of belonging, especially for the lonely.

  A sense of justice in the future for those who are oppressed.

  A sense of superiority for those who believe that they alone 'know the truth'.

  A friend for the friendless.

  Someone to talk to for those who have no-one else.

  A supposed code of morality for those who need it.

  Buildings, music, literature and a sense of history.

  Comfort.

  A sense that whatever you do, it is sanctioned or justified by your god and is therefore 'right'.

  None of it is logical or reasonable, of course, but one can see how a religion (any religion) which offers all this and more could survive and prosper. All one needs to do is to surrender disbelief and critical thinking.

  I suppose that my list of points above could apply to any religion and maybe that's why so many religions survive.
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  38

  Is this a new low?

  by Darth Eowyn in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  just had a couple of jws stop by my house.

  they had been before several times and know that i'm a pretty devout catholic, so i'm sure they were just swinging by to get more time for the card.. well, this time the opening line was about the tragedy in ct. i mean, really?

  you're going to try to get converts by capitalizing on this tragedy?

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  Joe Grundy

  "They are scavengers."

  Excuse a never-was dub (and an atheist) saying this, but in my experience they (dubs, and other cults/denominations/religions) do this all the time. They prey on the (sometimes temporarily) weak, depressed and afflicted, often when the defences are down and any 'comfort' or 'friend' is welcome.

  Fine to be a 'friend in need': despicable, in my opinion, to take that opportunity to 'push' (ihe same way a drugs dealer might) religion.
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  51

  Do Witnesses Ever Talk About Their Living Forever And Never Dying?

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  my 86 year old mother stopped believing she was going into paradise earth without dying first, about 10 years ago.

  my aunt used to think she was going to make it through the great tribulation.

  even a week before she died, she clung on to this fairy tale.. do you think jws believe they will never die at all and will, in their lifetime, be on a paradise earth to live forever?.

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  Joe Grundy

  "It was the first i realized that the best thing for me to do was not to try to open her eyes, but instead let her live the rest of her days in her paradise bliss dream. It would probably be too traumatic for her to realize that she wasted the majority of her life constantly giving up her time and resources to preach a message that is false."

  I never was a dub, nor do I have family/friends who are. But I DO have family and friends who have fairly fundamentalist christian beliefs, including a sister and brother-in-law who have comfort in believing that their son (my nephew) who died at 13 is 'in a better place'.

  I never discuss my atheist views and opinions with them (they know where I stand) nor would I ever do so with anyone who has a religious faith unless they initiate the discussion or they attempt to foist their beliefs on me. I would not want to challenge the faith of those who need or take comfort from it.

  And, of course, it is usually a waste of time to discuss religion with the religious.

  On the post-Armageddon note, there have been some good articles written (sorry, don't have links) about what life could be like in a JW 'Paradise On Earth'. 'Chilling' is probably the best word to describe it.
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  191

  If god exists...

  by dazed but not confused in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  [if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:worddocument> <w:view>normal</w:view> <w:zoom>0</w:zoom> <w:compatibility> <w:breakwrappedtables /> <w:snaptogridincell /> <w:wraptextwithpunct /> <w:useasianbreakrules /> </w:compatibility> <w:browserlevel>microsoftinternetexplorer4</w:browserlevel> </w:worddocument> </xml><![endif].

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  if god exists, wouldnt it make more sense for him to show himself today - now that we are a more enlightened people?

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  Joe Grundy

  NC:

  An interesting thought. If I am a 'created being' well, either the creator or me got it sadly wrong.

  I've done many things that I got completely wrong, and some I got very right (by my standards, not supernatural ones). I haven't really kept the score (e.g. not done weekly confessionals per RC rules) but I hope that at the end anyone interested enough would assess that the 'good' bits I did outweighed the 'bad'. Not for any supernatural purpose, just because I think that as a higher primate species and as a sentient being, I prefer to do 'good' rather than 'ill'. But I won't be around for the verdict, my atoms and molecules will sooner or later go back to cosmic dust.

  I take responsibility for my own actions and I stand or fall by them. I am not subject to supernatural influences, nor am I subject to a 'celestial totalitarianism' which dictates my actions before, during, and after my life. I am me, as independent as I can be, and someone who revels in the freedom to think.
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  191

  If god exists...

  by dazed but not confused in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

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  if god exists, wouldnt it make more sense for him to show himself today - now that we are a more enlightened people?

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  Joe Grundy

  NC:

  Noted and will respond. Thanks.

  "Life makes so much more sense now that I'm an atheist. And if this god ever wants to prove he's around, I will examine the new evidence. If he exists, he would know that. I don't even need a miracle."

  Well, I agree with this but would expand it to change 'this god' to 'any god'. Raised in a western protestant religion I had a particular view of 'god' inculcated in me as a child - and it's hard to break out of that. A few years ago I had a Thai girlfriend. There was no point in asking her in detail about her beliefs (or anything else for that matter) but her custom and belief was to light incense to the buddha, to give to the monks, and so on. She could no more detail her faith than discuss quantum mechanics (nor could I) but it meant a lot to her and regulated her morals and her actions. Not much different to many western christians.

  I do have some problems with the word 'atheist'. It seems to have become pejorative. I don't believe in the supernatural in all its forms, from the tooth fairy to 'ouija' seances. Some/many/most people don't believe in most alleged gods. I just go one step further and don't believe in any of them.
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  191

  If god exists...

  by dazed but not confused in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

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  if god exists, wouldnt it make more sense for him to show himself today - now that we are a more enlightened people?

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  Joe Grundy

  Tammy:

  With respect, I think you're dodging the issue a bit here.

  You were born in the west, with a general concept of the modern western god. Had you been born in Saudi Arabia, for example, you would almost certainly have been raised in one of the islamic religions with a concept of allah and your view of Jesus would have been shaped by that - i.e. he was an honourable prophet but his message was superceded by the 'revelations' to Mohammed. To deny that could mean death.

  Had you been born in Thailand, for example, you would be following the tenets of the buddha (and other gods) and would probably smile and acknowledge Jesus as one more source of teaching/thinking to be considered. And so the examples could continue.

  It would, I think, be a fascinating (but impossible) exercise if one could start with a blank sheet, free of all influences, and truly make a comparative study of all of the religions (and religious influences) which have abounded since homo sapiens started thinking about these things.
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  191

  If god exists...

  by dazed but not confused in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  [if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:worddocument> <w:view>normal</w:view> <w:zoom>0</w:zoom> <w:compatibility> <w:breakwrappedtables /> <w:snaptogridincell /> <w:wraptextwithpunct /> <w:useasianbreakrules /> </w:compatibility> <w:browserlevel>microsoftinternetexplorer4</w:browserlevel> </w:worddocument> </xml><![endif].

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  if god exists, wouldnt it make more sense for him to show himself today - now that we are a more enlightened people?

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  Joe Grundy

  PS: and in the case of the newer religions, e.g. JWs and Mormons, he left it another 2,000 years before communicating the later, truer, stuff.
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  191

  If god exists...

  by dazed but not confused in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  [if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:worddocument> <w:view>normal</w:view> <w:zoom>0</w:zoom> <w:compatibility> <w:breakwrappedtables /> <w:snaptogridincell /> <w:wraptextwithpunct /> <w:useasianbreakrules /> </w:compatibility> <w:browserlevel>microsoftinternetexplorer4</w:browserlevel> </w:worddocument> </xml><![endif].

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  if god exists, wouldnt it make more sense for him to show himself today - now that we are a more enlightened people?

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  Joe Grundy

  Hitchens and others make a good point which I have never seen effectively refuted. It's this:

  Homo Sapiens as a species have been around for at least 100,000 years (probably a lot more). For most of that time they lived in very difficult conditions - low life expectancy, high infant mortality, etc., and in fear of things they didn't understand such as earthquakes, volanoes, tsunami, and so on.

  To be a christian you have to believe that for the first 98,000 years or so a caring and all-powerful god watched all this with arms folded. Then he decided to intervene in his creation and decided to do so to a largely illiterate people in a backwater (Palestine) rather than in a relatively advanced civilisation (e.g. China). His chosen method was human sacrifice - an advanced form of 'scapegoating'.

  This rather suggests that god was uncaring, or not omniscient, or not all-powerful, or capricious.